Talking Meme #6

[thisbluespirit]

First, something I should have added to my first post of the day (sorry about the spammage!), but aralias took some B7 prompts and wrote a collection of fic for Gauda Prime Day, all of them not allowed to be focused on Blake/Avon. The fics all seem pretty awesome and include a great Tarrant/Dayna one for me. (Not the only Tarrant/Dayna in the set, either!)


And so, one more post for today - another meme post, this time: Why not tell us more about the three musketeers, or you could talk about the NAs? for aralias


The Three Musketeers! I'm not sure whether aralias meant just the Richard Lester film(s), but let's talk about the Musketeers generally, why not?

The first version of the story I came across was the 80s cartoon Dogtanian and the Three Muskehounds, which left me very confused when I saw a comic sketch of the original, because who was D'Artagnan anyway and why was Juliet called Constance? It had a very catchy/annoying sing-a-long theme song. I went off it, though, because they kept repeating it (& it was long) and my younger sisters were watching it while I felt I'd moved beyond it. And that was that, though I was mildly curious about what the original was.

However, I can't remember whether I first read a Puffin abridged version of the book, or Fire and Hemlock by Diana Wynne Jones, which uses the book as one of the main books-as-clues part of the story (and I went on a mission to read all the ones I didn't know), and I was blown away by how much better it was than the cartoon & had to go read the full version, which in turn was a revelation, because of the tongue-in-cheek humour that runs through. (The narrator knows that really the Musketeers are pretty terrible, or at least not people you ever want to live next door to.) And I had decided I didn't want to see any other film/TV versions because they would never get the humour as well as the swashbuckling... and then my dad made me watch the Richard Lester version(s).

Basically, I don't understand why we have any more film versions (TV fair enough, that's another medium). You can stop, people, the 70s got it right! It does get the humour, and it has Michael York, Oliver Reed, Richard Chamberlain, Faye Dunaway, Raquel Welch, Roy Kinnear, Spike Milligan, Christopher Lee, and Charlton Heston. (And some dubbing by Richard Briars, apparently, which explains a lot.) I don't know what a person would want in a Musketeers adaptation, but surely that is more than enough?


(Tumblr graphic, made by me.)

I think it would be a fun thing to vid, but I've never seen it done. I suppose I could myself one day if I could think of a song, but isn't that always the problem? Even aside from my rubbish technical skills.

I could talk here about the thing where actually it was only supposed to be one film, and then they split it into two but only paid the actors once and there was a whole thing and now actors have something called the Salkind Clause (after the producer) written into their contracts to stop such shenanigans from happening again. But that's all I know, so there you go. Two films for the price of one! Bargain, except for the cast.

As a result, the only other version I've watched is the 2011, and despite the fact it had Andrew Davies writing it, some nods to the Lester films, Matthew Macfadyen as Athos and a ninja non-evil Milady and airships, it was terrible. It had a good opening scene and then it was epically rubbish and not really even in a good-bad way, which it ought to have been. I was too tired to even record The Musketeers last year, sadly, because that sounds like it was pretty good.

Also I love Milady and how evil she is. I know I shouldn't, but pfft. I love her being so inhuman and evil and relentless! (They try to do a similar sort of thing with her son in the sequel, but it's not as good.) I like that she's completely unredeemable and always was. Obviously, I get why people want to fix this sometimes, and it's not as if Athos behaves well, either (but see what I said about how badly the Musketeers behave) but I enjoy a good female villain, and Milady's one of the very best. (My secret vengeful streak coming out, maybe?)

So I like The Three Musketeers quite a lot in various versions, and I like how it plays into Fire & Hemlock (which also has an inhuman female villain and a hero and heroine who behave badly/have to behave badly to behave well, as well as the Dumas Quartet, and a yellow horse) & I did once love that cartoon, so I have a lot of fondness for it, whether or not I should.


(I might still talk about the NAs! I have to think about that one some more. Last time I really gave them any deep thought, I was full of teenaged feelings about them, but I've grown as a person since then and I no longer want to kill Peter Darvill-Evans.)

Comments

[aralias]

musketeers! the 70s images are so lovely, glad you could bring them out again.

as for the matthew macfadden film.... i must admit i kind of love it, even though it is terrible. orlando bloom is so hilariously evil. i mean, everything about it is wrong, but somehow the overall experience is still entertaining. for some people.

speaking of dogtanon (which i never watched), did you ever watch albert the fifth musketeer? i thought this was one of the best shows ever at the age of about 12. but i still think the 1977 film is brilliant. so glad that they split it in two - the ending of the movie is the logical ending and after that there ARE four musketeers. plus, all the milady stuff etc is a bit weird so it's good not to have it in the straight-forward one.

[thisbluespirit]

Thank you! :-)

I am usually very lenient on anything involving historical Matthew and Pers (on LJ) gets a kick out of it too, and I thought I would from the description, but then it was terrible. Or maybe I was just v tired. I don't think I want to rewatch it very soon to find out though. I'd rather have a rewatch of the 70s films. (I think it was 73 rather than 77, though 77 was an excellent year and it ought to have been. ;-p)

I've never even heard of Albert the Fifth Musketeer!

And, yes, I think the films work best split in two as well. Of course, the bit where they then didn't pay the actors enough for two films was a bit sneaky, but probably they would have gone broke affording that cast x2. I've never dared watch the 90s Return of the Three Musketeers film, though, have you? All I know is that Roy Kinnear died while they were making it, which must have made it a lot less cheerful...

[aralias]

a kindly correction! you can tell i don't keep track of dates.

the plot was basically that all the other musketeers were terrible at their jobs and albert had to keep saving them with his quick thinking and inventions. it was amusing... i think.

[thisbluespirit]

I only know because a) I was born in 1977, so I tend to remember if something I like came out then, and b) I'd just been Googling it for this. :-)

I'll have to see if I can find anything about it!

[pedanther]

Yay, Musketeers!

If you don't know about it already, there's a series of posts Tansy Rayner Roberts is running on her blog under the banner of Musketeer Media Monday, in which she watches various adaptations and comments on them.

[thisbluespirit]

:-)

Thanks for the link - that was fun. :-)

[persiflage-1.livejournal.com]

You totally should watch the BBC TV series just for the sake of PCap's fantastic Cardinal. MAN he is awesome! I was SO glad I'd seen that before I saw him as the Doctor because I totally knew we'd be getting a fantastic Doctor this year.

And yeah, the MM film was a bit dire - and yet, somehow, I enjoyed it - maybe 'cos I'd never seen another version and I was just in the mood for it's silly awfulness?

[thisbluespirit]

I'm sorry I missed it, especially since it seems to be one of those things the BBC never repeat, but maybe I can hop on board for S2 anyway & hope one day they'll deign to let me see S1 But last year I just couldn't cope with even the thought of watching an hour long action series, unfortunately.

And, aww, but it had a lot of potential for one of those good-bad things, and maybe between me being tired & loving the old films too much, I just wasn't in the mood for it, even with Matthew on board! :-)

[persiflage-1.livejournal.com]

Doesn't the library have it on DVD? 'cos I missed watching it (as I so often do!) so I just grabbed the DVDs from the library...

It's a shame S2 won't have PCap - although with him doing Who, it's NOT surprising. But I shall miss his Cardinal!

Maybe on another watch - when you're less tired - you'd enjoy it's awfulness more? I shall see if I can get hold of the Lester films out of curiosity.

(I actually recently got the ebook of T3M as it's been a while since I read it and I fancied a re-read - though I haven't *actually* read it yet! LOL!)

[thisbluespirit]

No, we never had much of a budget for DVDs in this authority; it was all just the latest films as a sort of self-funding/fund-raising thing, and since 2010 our library service can't afford to buy more than a handful of books per library each year, let alone DVDs, which were getting less in demand even then. Your library always sounds good for that, but ours was just too small an authority to do it properly, I suppose.

LOL, I don't think I'm brave enough to have a rewatch yet. Maybe one day, yes! The Lester films are pretty fun - it's a pretty awesome cast by any standards, if nothing else!

[persiflage-1.livejournal.com]

Oh that's a great shame! :(

Heh - well I wasn't necessarily thinking of an immediate re-watch.

Oh - talking of MM reminds me that the actor who plays Malcolm in early Spooks is in the first of Bill Nighy's scenes in Love Actually - and I'd never noticed him before today! I mean, the first few times I saw the movie I hadn't seen Spooks, so not surprising, but I've watched it since seeing Spooks and hadn't spotted him. But I finally watched it with the audio commentary today - and saw him! (Sorry, totally random aside!)

[thisbluespirit]

Ha, is he? I don't think I've ever noticed him in it, either, and I must have already been watching Spooks from the first time I saw it!

Did you enjoy the commentary? I remember that one being a fun one. Hugh Grant kept insulting Colin Firth and things. :-)

(Must be nearly Christmas if people are watching Love, Actually!)

[persiflage-1.livejournal.com]

Yeah - if you watch Bill's first scene, where they're recording Christmas is all around, to the left of Gregor Fisher's manager character is the actor who played Malcolm - but without the glasses...

I did enjoy it - Hugh's snarking about Colin Firth absolutely cracked me up!

Indeed it must! *grins*

[thisbluespirit]

I'll have to keep an eye out! :-)

I did enjoy it - Hugh's snarking about Colin Firth absolutely cracked me up!

LOL, so glad! It's been years since I listened to it, but I still remember something about him saying his jumper was a better actor and stuff. (And Rowan Atkinson totally was an angel. *nods*)

[a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com]

I must admit, the only Three Musketeers I've seen was the 90's movie. Yus, yus...I suck.

*HUGS*

[thisbluespirit]

Oh no, you don't! Of course not. I've never seen that one - by the time it came out I was already in love with the older two and you know how that goes. The heart will accept no substitutes, especially when young! But I mean, it's The Three Musketeers, if someone's done a half-decent job, there should be swashbuckling and fun and devilry & all that.

[a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com]

It had silliness, fun, silliness - and Paul McGann as an affronted suitor constantly hunting out D'Artagnan, Tim Curry as the Cardinal and well...it was fun. *Grins*

*HUGS*

[thisbluespirit]

Paul McGann! Oh, well, now there's a reason to watch! :-)

[a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com]

Foppish, powdered and hysterical. It was Awesome.

*CACKLES*

[thisbluespirit]

... I now have a feeling I have seen an edited thing of just Paul McGann from this. Possibly?? (YouTube is to blame for a lot of things!)

[a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com]

You likely have, lol!! It was a fandom favorite. (I blame YT for everything, actually. Especially for my addiction to fanvids.)

[swordznsorcery.livejournal.com]

The 70s Musketeers are great, aren't they! Although the second one is a bit rubbish due to lack of Richard Chamberlain. I do like the 40s version as well though. Ruddy silly wigs, but Gene Kelly makes a fabulously swashbuckly D'Artagnan. Being such a good dancer, he was very good at learning showy fight scenes. Lots of fun.

The 90s version is terrible. Good Brat Pack cast (and Paul McGann, yes!), but it just doesn't work. It's lacking that sense of fun, somehow. I haven't seen the more recent film version, but I definitely second the BBC TV series recommendation up above. It's jolly good fun. D'Artagnan's a bit wet, but the Musketeers themselves are excellent, there's some fine guest stars, and Peter Capaldi is terrific as the Cardinal. Plus the king and queen are very good, and Constance is also very promising. Also, some gorgeous locations. Just look at this library! (http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2014-01-19/the-musketeers-travel-guide-to-the-czech-republic)

PS: Actual Tarrant and Dayna fans?! I've been avoiding B7 fandom for years, due to all the Tarrant hate from the scary Vila lovers ("We must protect our baby Vilakins!"). Maybe I should start investigating more.

[thisbluespirit]

I didn't even notice there was less Richard Chamberlain in the second! But it's a good cast, so many people to watch... :-)

I would like to catch up with The Musketeers but I'm not sure I want to buy it & the BBC is always really random with repeats - we get DW plenty of times before it comes back again and then things like this never ever.

Well, lots of us just like Blake's 7 and everybody in it. Aralias is primarily a Blake fan, and Blake/Avon, but she loves the whole thing & she wanted to write some non B/A stuff for people. And I've never seen enough Vila fans in one place to scare anyone! I'm a pretty big Vila fan - I hope I'm not oppressing you? And the only other one I know who's probably the biggest Vila fan around writes a pretty fun Tarrant. I always thought it tended to be Blake/Avon people who hated him for replacing Blake and being annoying and contributing to That Ending. I like him. I love B7 - in any other show Tarrant'd be the hero, but B7 doesn't do hero, so he struts in being heroic and everyone else just finds it annoying. It's brilliant. Dayna is awesome, though, and I love them together.

[jaxomsride.livejournal.com]

I heartily recommend the BC Musketeers it has all of the things that made those movies great which other films have missed. Also Peter Capaldi makes a great Richelieu

As they are now doing a second series they may repeat series 1 on iPlayer.

My first memories of the Musketeers date from a cartoon series too - one that was shown as part of the Banana Splits show. The animation was awful but I loved the show.

Mind you my favourite cartoon version has to be the Tom and Jerry one.

[thisbluespirit]

So many versions! It's one of those things, isn't it? I would like to watch The Musketeers, but the BBC'll have to repeat it properly or I'll need to get my hands on the DVDs - I can watch some things on line, but not a whole series of hour-long episodes; that's still too much for me. I'd imagine I can probably jump into S2 & see how it goes!

:-)

[recessivejean.livejournal.com]

I think the principal critique of the 2011 film I've seen is that it doesn't even so much try to adapt the story as it uses the setting as an excuse to show off a lot of costumes and explosions.

I can cheerfully accept that explanation since I very much enjoy the film as a display piece (lots of flashing swords, rustling skirts and Matthew Macfadyen making impossibly sombre, dramatic speeches) but I have watched it I-don't-even-know-how-many times, and I STILL couldn't tell you in exactly what order the scenes occur.

[thisbluespirit]

it doesn't even so much try to adapt the story as it uses the setting as an excuse to show off a lot of costumes and explosions.

This is not automatically a bad thing. Maybe I was just too tired for it that day, because I enjoy a good-bad film sometimes, especially with bonus Matthew. On the other hand, there were quite a lot of (presumably deliberate?) echoes of the Lester films, which inevitably makes the viewer compare... and in the 2011 case, it's just not going to come off well.

[recessivejean.livejournal.com]

I watched it again just last night (I tried to remember which of two scenes came first, and couldn't!) and the screen resolution was such that I was even able to pick out the raised embroidery on some jackets. The little frills of lace look homemade, and some of the female characters' hairstyles just . . . unf. It is a gloriously pretty movie. The people, the clothes, the palace--all of it.

And yes I did read that the comparison was deliberate. The review mentioned the opening duel between D'Artagnan and his father and the decision to put Rochefort in an eyepatch, specifically, but I think there was more. So that's a tough act to follow for sure.

[thisbluespirit]

I love the whole concept of Milady and Athos as sort of rival con-artists (I pretty instantly adore that trope) & there were some good bits, but I'm not surprised to hear the Lester refs definitely were deliberate, because the humorous aspects were very noticeably riffed from it, so I suppose it kept making me think of the other!

I think I was too tired to appreciate even the prettiness much whe I watched it, but I'm sure it is. After all, quality of script and design don't necessarily go together. The opening scene was fab as well. It just... all went downhill from there! But, yes, maybe I'll watch it again and enjoy the crack a bit more, because crack there definitely was.

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

Heh. Strictly speaking film versions of The Three Musketeers I've seen--

the 1921 silent starring Douglas Fairbanks Senior
the 1930 B&W talkie starring Don Ameche
the 1948 technicolor starring Gene Kelley
the 1973 film starring Michael York
the 1993 film starring Chris O'Donnell
the 2011 3D film starring Logan Lerman

That's half a dozen films, just talking about adaptations of the first book. I've also watched more than one version of The Man In the Iron Mask, and one of the "Films featuring descendants of the Musketeers." I love watching Maureen O'Hara swash-buckle as Athos' daughter in the 1952 movie At Sword's Point. I've thought about making a Top Five Performances as Aramis list, given he's my favorite musketeer, but I'd really like to get to see the latest BBC series first. I'm betting I'd want to put Santiago Cabrera's performance as Aramis in the list. My Top Five after seeing it might go--

1. Jeremy Irons (The Man in the Iron Mask 1998)
2. Charlie Sheen (The Three Musketeers 1993)
3. Santiago Cabrera (The Musketeers 2014)
4. Richard Chamberlain (The Three Musketeers 1973)
5. Luke Evans (The Three Musketeers 2011)

The 1993 movie came out the year I graduated high school. It in general, and Charlie as Aramis, will always have a special place in my heart. I think Jeremy Irons and the rest of the actors that played the musketeers in the 1998 The Man in the Iron Mask are the best group ever assembled to play the musketeers when they're older. I think the crew in the latest BBC series might be the best overall cast for the musketeers when they were younger, but I haven't seen it yet. I love Richard Chamberlain and Luke Evans, but the movies they played Aramis in don't have the same hold on me as the movies the higher ranked performances were in, and I think the TV show could have a hold on me if I ever get the chance to see it.

[thisbluespirit]

That's a lot of versions! I'm not especially hung up on any particular character; what I want from a Musketeers production is that they get the book, the ironic humour, and the full story, including the darker aspects & out of those I've seen, the 1973/4 films deliver that in spades, especially the humour and faithfulness to the books. I haven't seen the BBC TV series yet - everyone seems to love it, so I hope I can catch it sometimes, because it sounds pretty awesome.

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

That's a lot of versions!

Well, I own three of the five films featuring performances of Aramis that I really love? I figure one of the ways of telling that a character/story is strong is that they/it can be handled in a variety of different ways. I mean I mentioned how I make the distinction that I think the cast in the 1998 The Man in the Iron Mask are the best "older" musketeers I've seen. I'd add that, of the film versions I have seen, I think the 1993 cast are the best "younger" musketeers. I enjoy variety.

I'm not especially hung up on any particular character...

While Aramis is my favorite character in the Three Musketeers, it's less a matter of me being hung up on "a particular character" than it is my caring most about the characters in general. I mean if I were going to rank what story elements are most important to me I'd go -- 1) characters, 2) mood, 3) plot

That isn't to say that plot has no importance to me, but it does mean two things -- 1) If I don't like the characters I'm not going to get into the mood and plot, and 2) if I like the characters and the mood the plot can be very silly and/or nonexistent.

...what I want from a Musketeers production is that they get the book, the ironic humour, and the full story, including the darker aspects...

Which is different from what I want. I want to like the production's treatment of the characters, I want the mood to be swashbuckling, and the story to incorporate enough of the basic plot elements from the book to serve the characters and mood.

Out of those I've seen, the 1973/4 films deliver that in spades, especially the humour and faithfulness to the books.

While the 1973/4 films lose me at the character stage because the only performances in them that I really like are Richard Chamberlain's Aramis, and Christopher Lee's Rochefort, they also don't hold my interest well because I think they try too hard to fit everything in. I mean it might not be as badly stretched as Peter Jackson stretching The Hobbit over three movies, but it is an example of one book getting spread over two movies.

[flowsoffire.livejournal.com]

MUSKETEERS, YAY! I pretty much only know the books (with the usual sequel AND the huge three-book sequel!) but I loveeeee Milady ♥ I was obsessed with her as a kid—already all rooting for the villains, lol. She's just so passionate in her hatred and yet so coldly calculating. ♥

[thisbluespirit]

Milady is one of the best female villains out there! ♥

[flowsoffire.livejournal.com]

She really is! :D

[liadt]

Everybody loves the Three Musketeers! Nice pic spammage:)

I still love the cartoon version, well the first series. The second was rubbish bah. I watched a couple of years ago and still enjoyed it. I like how it goes beyond the Queen's Diamonds which is where most film adaptations stop.

The black and white 60's BBC adaptation is good with Jeremy Brett, with designer stubble, and Mr Meaker in a blonde wig as Rochefort. I like the ep where they're all being hysterical and Mr Meaker swirls his cape around himself and walks off, which is the correct reaction:)

The BBC's new version is sort of ignoring the book and doing it's own thing, which seems to be the in thing (e.g Merlin and stuck in a forest or cave, sorry, Atlantis). It's on BBC red button from the 27th but I don't know if a compilation or repeat.

[thisbluespirit]

Oh, no, I'm sure somebody hates them! There's always one, and this is the internet. Bound to be a posse... ;-)

The black and white 60's BBC adaptation is good with Jeremy Brett, with designer stubble, and Mr Meaker in a blonde wig as Rochefort.

Is that the one where Roger Delgado is Athos? Or is that another one? Or did I just randomly make that up? It sounds terribly unlikely if awesome now that I type it out.

The BBC's new version is sort of ignoring the book and doing it's own thing

Well, the Musketeers is a thing I can see that working with. I was actually perfectly up for the steampunk version, but it turned out to be not even the right sort of bad, at least not for my purposes the day I watched it. Thanks about the red button - I'll see if that does me any good! :-)

[liadt]

Hats and swordfights - what's not to like?

Roger Delgado was in the 1950's one. I'm not sure if it's extant or not though. I do have a pic of him as Athos in an old DWM.

I was hoping for a straighter adaptation with the Beeb's new one, because the reason the book has lasted is because the story is so good so why not use it? It's not as good as the book. If you do watch it prepare for your fave guest character of the week to be deded after 57 mins.

[ramasi.livejournal.com]

Milady is hands down one of the best villains ever. She's terrifying and competent and unrepentant. I wouldn't mind seeing her humanised, myself, but you wouldn't have to change the plot for that (there's novel with her as the story from her POV that I'd have liked to get my hands on, but it changes things like de Winter was a model husband and she didn't kill him): it's just, other people are assholes too, you can work with that (I hate Athos. I hate Athos so much.)
And, she's 100% a villain, but we see a pretty large bit from her POV where we're kind of called to sympathise with her, in spite of that, imo.

I take note of what you say about that movie, but I remain sceptical. I've never seen an adaptation that even came close to being satisfying (though I can't say I've watched many).
I love this book so, so much. Have you read the second sequel?

[thisbluespirit]

Oh, yes, there's a lot of room for a feminist retelling - but she is awesome as evil as she is. :-)

I take note of what you say about that movie, but I remain sceptical. I've never seen an adaptation that even came close to being satisfying

After I'd finally read the actual book (or the translation, to be more correct!), I decided that no adaptation could ever hit quite the right note & I would therefore not bother watching any - and then my Dad recorded these two! Of course, me liking them doesn't guarantee that you would. I like lots about them, but I particularly like the way they render the humour - both in the obvious way with jokes and slapstick and comedic elements to the big fight scenes, but with this sort of constant commentary from bystanders being annoyed about getting their stalls smashed and all these little things (that bit is really hard to explain like that). Plus, even though it's the 70s, so there are some sexist innuendos in there, Raquel Welch's Constance gets way more character and stuff to do than other versions I've seen - the 2011 was pathetic in comparison. (Also, they have added the detail of her being super-clumsy and it's brilliant. If it is at all possible, she will cause whole structures to fall down around her everywhere she goes.) And Faye Dunaway is an excellent Milady.

I went looking and actually found this tribute (to part of the soundtrack):



But I can understand loving the book too well to ever risk it!

ETA: Whoops - I've read Twenty Years After, and The Man in the Iron Mask, but I don't know if I've read another. I might have done? I was going to say no, but suddenly I'm not sure...

[ramasi.livejournal.com]

I'm super picky about adaptations, so maybe I don't like that one either, but that does sound good about the humour at least. The issue I had with 2011 was that for all its unapologetic over-the-top-ness, it seemed to take itself pretty seriously, at least where the completely unfitting morality was concerned. I did like the flying ships tho; this is the kind of non-faithfulness I can get behind.
Oh, and Constance. She becomes passive in the second half, but she's so proactive early on in the book, it's a pity when that goes away.

I think The Man in the Iron Mask is the one I mean? I always get confused, because in French the whole thing is called "Le Vicomte de Bragelonne", but in English it's sometimes cut into three parts with different titles, so I'm never sure how to get across that I mean the whole thing.