If you love someone, stab them to prove you care...

[thisbluespirit]

I have finally started watching The Caesars (ITV 1967/8), after a delay because I wanted a break from non-restored scratchy old 1960s b&w telly (great as it may be). I've now seen episode 1 ("Augustus"). It is a very interesting thing to watch having seen I Claudius because it covers the same period, but tries to be more historical (well, as far as you can be with ancient history and with a fictional serial). So far, the big contrast is in the portrayal of Tiberius. No offence to George Baker, because it's about the way the character is written, but André Morell's Tiberius is ten times more interesting. Everyone else was very good, too, although I suspect given the shorter series (6 episodes) and the focus on the six emperors (Augustus, Germanicus, Tiberius, Sejanus, Caligula & Claudius), that I will be sad/annoyed at who doesn't get enough screen time. (Sonia Dresdel's Livia was very good despite comparatively little screen time - ruthless still, but her passion and love for Augustus was clearly real (and she doesn't poison him to prove it) but I don't know if we'll see her again. I hope so!) So far, also, Freddie Jones is an excellent Claudius, too. Derek Jacobi is quite cast into the shade already.

Death count = 2 (1 natural causes, 1 stabbing). (I'm not sure how high the death count in I Claudius was by episode 1, but I'm pretty sure there were several poisonings and maroonings going on very early. I'm not rewatching to compare, because I don't want Brian Blessed induced nightmares again, thank you.) Derek Newark was trotted out again as old telly's one macho guy. (So macho he had to die! He often does, poor Derek.)

(evelyn_b will be no doubt saddened to learn that there is no credit snake here.)

Anyway, I looked it up on Wiki, wondering if they had any further info - I mean, it can't have been influenced by the IC TV series of course, but what about the book? Was it deliberately being written against that or not even regarding it? Wiki didn't tell me, but it did link me to this entrancingly long list of film & TV set in Ancient Rome. (And, ironically, it's missed off The Caesars, although it is on their list of Historical dramas). Has anyone set out to watch their way through the lot? It's the internet, surely someone must have done?

Which then led to me looking at their linked list historical drama films (& TV). How long would it take to watch through history by fictional series/films?

Is it just me or is the idea of taking a period and watching everything you can strangely enticing? Oh, noes, who let me out near a list? At the very least I want to copy it and tick off everything I have watched and things I know that they missed off (and am not looking at their list of all historical fiction in books, film and TV...)

Comments

[persiflage-1.livejournal.com]

No, that's a very satisfying idea - but I will avoid something like WW2, because Whoa! Too many things!

Anyway have fun!

[thisbluespirit]

Also it would be very depressing - constant war for decades, I should think! (I think maybe I'd go for 18th C Britain. Possibly. And being me, old telly period dramas set then, obv.)

I shall enjoy my b&w Romans stabbing each other, yes. It has some actors I like in it at some point, like Barbara Murray and Caroline Blakiston and so on, and everybody else seems pretty good so far.

[persiflage-1.livejournal.com]

Yes it would! It'd probably take you months to watch every WW2 era movie and TV show that's not been burninated...

It sounds right up your alley...

[shannonsequitur.livejournal.com]

Relevant link (http://what-if.xkcd.com/100/) re: WWII movies.

[persiflage-1.livejournal.com]

Haha! Thanks!

[thisbluespirit]

LOL! But does it include all the TV series as well...? Still, 300 days of WWII films, I wouldn't make it. I am definitely not doing that period!!

[weaselett.livejournal.com]

Heh - I have not (the first 10minutes of Rome were legit too traumatic for me, so I think I'd have to stick to bits I haven't studied?)

I think the father has seen all of the 'historic' westerns, and african wars and a good amount of other selections....though based on his comments I have always been tempted to watch I, Claudius

I would hope you'd get a little bit more Livia as she was around ;) - hope you enjoy the rest!

[thisbluespirit]

Haha, yes, that might be necessary for keeping hold of one's sanity - although old time BBC and ITV serials are usually pretty good with actually resembling history, if it all happened to a canvas backdrop.

I, Claudius is very good, but despite being the ultimate in lack of sets and cardboard TV it is still due to general brilliance of everybody involved 100% disturbing as a disturbing thing and it gave me nightmares about Brian Blessed being murdered, and I am going to take a while to forgive it. But it is the ultimate in BBC Romans stabbing each other.

I hope so, too, but I have a feeling that most of the cast were only in 1 episode each, barring a few of the emperors, but I hope I'm wrong - she impressed on what screen time she was given, as she should.

ETA: Rome improves a lot after the first ten minutes. It has first episode let-us-be-as-shocking-as-possible-itis, but then it calms down into getting on with actually being more brilliant than any other modern TV historical I've yet seen. (Cicero's death scene was possibly the most amazing thing, although sadly, history dictated that the best characters died off too soon, which did impact a bit on S2, because you can't suddenly pretend Julius Caesar gets to live just because he's played by Ciaran Hinds.)

[weaselett.livejournal.com]

*crosses fingers*


See it wasn't even the lets-be-shocking-as-possible - it was the 'not even vaguely historically accurate besides names' (I had literally just finished studying vercingetorix when it aired *face palm*) - so I think I'd just be twitching?

I'm fine with Xena (hard core all things happened at the same time ;) ) but other things :/ (I can never ever watch the mess that is Reign *shudders*)

[thisbluespirit]

I'm not very up on Classical history at all, but my impression from people who are re. Rome is that some of the set designs are too late a period for the time but that most of the rest is surprisingly accurate, insofar as a period like that can be accurate? But yeah, if you're an expert and they're Getting It Wrong, it's just stressful!

[sallymn.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, Brian Blessed's death scene really was the most nightmarish nightmare fuel in a series that had plenty of it to spare, wasn't it? I adore I Claudius, but probably partly because I know when to hit the fast forward button...

One thing about historical films and TV - the ones based on real events - is that at least having read up on the subject I tend to suspect when it's going to requite a heavy hand on the ff while the other shields my eyes... I haven't managed to watch al of Wolf Hall without skimming some bits, brilliant though it is.

[thisbluespirit]

Heh, you know when they're going to chop somebody's head off or who's going to lose the battle! Unless some rotten director comes along and AUs history when you're not expecting it of course... :-)

[liadt]

Not at all:) Lots of people only watch WWII films or read regency romances etc And I bet there is a Ricardian who has read everything on those lists the Richard III societies pump out. Bet they are really sick of time travelling kids turning up in the Wars of the Roses though;p

Also it is interesting seeing the differences on how different productions do things. After watching all the Henry VIs, I did consider watching the whole of the White Queen to see how they did the period, but it wasn't cheap enough (fortunately!?).

[thisbluespirit]

True, although I suppose I was kind of thinking actually in chronological order (ish)? But yes. And aha, damn those time travelling kids - there are a lot of them turning up all over the place!

Now, I don't often say this, but you're being completely unfair to The White Queen - it was very cheap! It had modern railings on display and rubbish costumes and didn't seem inclined to actually spend money on anything. Credit where it's due, after all. ;-p (I know it's not as cheap as SotT, but few things even on the BBC in the olden days can reach quite those heights of cheapness.)

[liadt]

Lol, I was thinking of the price of the DVD as the BBC has always been cheap;) I thought because TWQ was panned it would be cheap. But last time I looked it was £7. Now if it was 70p...

I am disappointed in the only ep of TWQ I watched I didn't spot the zips etc though *sadness*.

[thisbluespirit]

LOL! Oh, well, I think it did well enough, that's the thing? It does seem to be hard to pick up cheap DVDs! I looked up the older WDYTYAs the other day & instead of being really cheap because they're repeated all the time and years old, some of them had leapt up to exotic prices, it's ridiculous.

I don't think I spotted any zips. I was too overcome by the modern railings.

[liadt]

Maybe it's people outside the UK bereft of WDYTYA repeats who are driving the prices up?

Ah, but, you see, the railings are symbolic of thingy;p

[swordznsorcery.livejournal.com]

Yay, historical telly. Historical telly and lists! Even better. :) Actually that's very very historical telly, isn't it. I had no idea that ITV were even going in 1867. ;) (Don't you love how everybody else politely ignored that, and I just couldn't?!)

It's a nice idea to be able to work your way methodically though an historical period though, certainly. Pick a favourite and dive in; inasmuch as it's available of course. Rome is certainly a good place to start. There's not a lot set prior to that really. And I love your death tally! Makes me wonder why nobody has attempted an adaptation of Suetonius's "Twelve Caesars", unless they decided it was simply too violent/racy/improbable. Mind you, telly isn't usually that sensible.

[thisbluespirit]

:lol: Oh, dear, 1868. To be fair to me, I have been in the 19th and 18th Cs a lot lately with the family history - 1967/8 is a bit too modern! /o\

It does have an appeal, doesn't it? I won't, but I wonder how much history I have watched already? (You can see me making my own list here, can't you? Heh.)

You should write in and suggest it. It's been 10 years since Rome, so we're overdue for some more people in togas.

[swordznsorcery.livejournal.com]

Ten years since "Rome"?! How the bejeezus did that happen?! Blimey, blink and you miss whole centuries, the speed that time is moving at now.

The thing with telly is that it favours particular eras of course, which would skew any list somewhat. The Napoleonic era, for instance, would be pretty heavily represented. The Victorian age too. And then there'd be these big, yawning gaps in between, like historical No Man's Lands, which we'd struggle to fill.

[thisbluespirit]

There are definitely more sparsely populated areas, but if you take world TV & cinema, I think the yawning gaps aren't yawning very widely to say the least.

[swordznsorcery.livejournal.com]

That's a good point. I could do with brushing up on some other-country-history. And the good thing there is, any wild errors wouldn't be so blatant (to me), and therefore not quite so grating! :)

[dimity-blue.livejournal.com]

Those lists are amazing! You never run out of things to watch.

[thisbluespirit]

No, although there's no guarantee that all of those things exist, and some of them must inevitably be pretty dire! But it's a cool idea for a themed watch if I ever run out of actors to stalk. :-)

[osprey-archer.livejournal.com]

I have always meant to see I Claudius. Perhaps this is my cue to finally do so!

And if no one has tried to watch their way through that list of film and TV set in Ancient Rome, perhaps you should be the one! I bet it would make for a very entertaining series of posts at least. Plus it would be super interesting to watch it all in order of filming and see how the depiction of the time period changed over time...

[thisbluespirit]

It is very good, although you should be warned for a) BBC cardboard theatrical telly and slow pace and b) it being highly disturbing somehow nonetheless. But good!

I am definitely kind of tempted, but maybe some other period? Because while I do have a soft spot for Romans and the people who stab them, I'd like to know a bit more of the background history then I do as yet.

I think I might need to see what my own timeline of TV watching looks like, though... (Lists! Lists are good. :-D)

[evelyn-b.livejournal.com]

So enticing! And now I'm curious to see The Caesars, despite its tragic lack of credit snake, because Tiberius was one of my favorites in the early I, Claudius episodes. I kept rooting for him even though the poor guy never did a thing to deserve it. Ten times more interesting could be good!

Also, FREDDIE JONES? That's kind of brilliant.

[thisbluespirit]

The best thing is that Kevin Stoney played the exact same characters in both series - the astrologer Thrasyllus. Because nobody else could do it? :-)

And I'm sorry, this is another of those obscure R2-only releases, but it turns out that (as ever) someone has uploaded it to YouTube. (It's a bit hard to describe Tiberius in this as yet... sort of passive devious fatalistic stealth republican?) I'm a bit amused at the writing - it's mostly good, but the characters are maybe trying a little hard to come out with epigrams.

Freddie Jones, oh yes. I'm glad - obviously Claudius is the one person who's going to be in every episode!

[emeraldarrows.livejournal.com]

Cool lists! I've seen quite a bit of them but not all! :D

[thisbluespirit]

I would be in awe (or, er, something) of someone who had seen them all! :loL:

[jaxomsride.livejournal.com]

A fascinating resource, of course learning history would be a lot more interesting if you could watch it as drama. I used to like all the old "How we Used To Live". Though with some of the historical dramas you would have the teacher having to explain which bits were not so historically accurate. Still far more fun than history texts.

[thisbluespirit]

I think we did watch some films for history sometimes, but I liked it anyway and probably preferred the documentaries! I should think some historical dramas would involve the teacher having fits over it, which would also be entertaining I suppose!

[ysse-writes.livejournal.com]

Not even remotely related to anything you mentioned, but I just finished the Akuma no Riddle anime, and your title describes it perfectly. <-- possible spoiler

I keep meaning to watch Rome because of recs, but, I don't know, I have a hard time with historicals because I get so attached to characters and take it so bad when my faves die (although, of course, they were already all dead to begin with). (says the girl now reading Renault)

[thisbluespirit]

Yeah, Rome is probably not best advised if you prefer characters to stay alive! I mean, everyone knows what's going to happen to Julius Caesar and Mark Antony, Cleopatra, Brutus, Cassius, Pompet et al, and it isn't good. :-)

[hyarrowen.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to think of periods that haven't been properly covered. I mean, you'd probably never get to the end of stuff on the Tudors because it's being made at such a rate these days. But most of the first millennium barely gets a look-in, unless you count Arthur, and the first half-century of Norman rule is likewise sparse. Also the seventeenth century, apart from the middle and the early eighteenth century... there are some strange gaps, you're quite right.

This idea is taking root in my brain, dammit!

[thisbluespirit]

Apparently, the wiki lists are just scratching the surface and the thing to do is to use IMBD tagging for the relevant period - I think if you wanted merely as near-unbroken a chronology across the world, you could get one. If you wanted all periods for all countries, there would be some big gaps all over the place.

Your mention of the Normans makes me suddenly wonder why on earth there hasn't been a Rome/Tudors style thing about William the Conqueror. I mean, he's a bastard! Sex right there, sex and battles and trickery and ambition! Burning down London because you can't speak the language. It has everything. Including obviously Harold/William slash potential, probably. (I heard rumous of them making a Tudors-style serial about The PLantagenets, a la Dan Jones narrative history book of the same name, I think, but I'm not sure whether that's actually a thing that's happening or not.)

And there was that King Alfred thing last year, which may not be over yet, so there's another installment.

I think I haven't quite finished with this yet... I wonder how much my flist has watched between us? Quite a lot, I should think...

[hyarrowen.livejournal.com]

Your mention of the Normans makes me suddenly wonder why on earth there hasn't been a Rome/Tudors style thing about William the Conqueror... It has everything. Including obviously Harold/William slash potential, probably.

!!!

A fair amount of slash potential for William Rufus, too, plus a murder mystery. It's odd that period is so neglected.

I long for that Plantagenets series - always thought they were going to be the next big thing, but the media haven't delivered so far. But basically it's a 300-year family quarrel.

I didn't know about a King Alfred thing! Long overdue - it's a great story, and Hereward as well, and may it come out to the Antipodes in the not-too-distant.

the wiki lists are just scratching the surface and the thing todo is to use IMBD tagging for the relevant period - I think if you wanted merely as near-unbroken a chronology across the world, you could get one. If you wanted all periods for all countries, there would be some big gaps all over the place

Makes you wonder why the film industry goes for endless remakes, when there's so much that hasn't been covered yet!

[thisbluespirit]

Well, the film industry is really a nervous unicorn and when it's putting millions of pounds into things, it feels happier doing that thing that always does so well rather than scary new territory that people might not like. (Or they did it once and it didn't work out & they can't do it again. It is a very nervy unicorn, after all.)

If they made it a multi-generational thing, you could get Queen Emma in it, who is amazing/scary and nobody ever talks about even though she was one of the main reasons for the Norman Conquest. But I think a William biopic would be more realistic and it would have everything.

We should write to the BBC and HBO with a list, and for the latter we can add in gory deaths, bastards and mistresses. (Fandom will take care of the slash).

The Last Kingdom aired here last year, from a Bernard Cornwall book, and I kind of had mixed feelings about it (especially since the hero went round collecting and disposing of tropey wives/girlfriends, including a Celtic cliche), but at the same time it was really interesting to get a different period - and I think it went down v well because the lead was very pretty and apparently that's all that matters these days. (I'm not bitter about new Poldark, okay>). Also, they killed Matthew Macfadyen in episode 1, which was a mistake. If you have a Matthew Macfadyen, you should keep him around if you can.

The Plantagenet series did sound as if it was going to be a thing, but these things get proposed and don't happen, or they get proposed and you hear nothing for years and then suddenly it turns up, so... I don't know. It did sound more solid a rumour than some of them, and seems inevitably, really. :-) (I think The Hollow Crown provided a way in.)

I actually wonder if I used those IMBD tags how many gaps there are, because I don't know what the output of other countries looks like at all & some European & S. American companies do a big trade in historicals, I think.

[ndjow.livejournal.com]

[a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com]

Sounds like a good idea to me, actually...

*HUGS*

[thisbluespirit]

Yes, I think it could be. And I think there are various blogs out there where people do watch/read all the things on one subject. I'm not sure what, but something to do with this keeps playing on my mind...

[angelfireeast.livejournal.com]

Goodness I remember my parents watching this when I child. It was rerunning on the Knowledge Network. I wasn't allow to watch it but I peak at it and hear parts of it. It scared me! It left such an impression on my that I have watched it since. Which is really a shame because historical drama. I watched Rome at least twice and I'm pretty that is has more blood, murder and horribleness that I Claudius.

You're kind making me want to give it try.

[thisbluespirit]

You watched I Claudius, I take it, not The Caesars? I think, even though Rome has far more blood & guts and suchlike, I Claudius, despite its theatrical bareness, has a power to disturb that hasn't often been equalled. It is hard to pinpoint why, though. Probably just the combination of the stories and the focus in on unvarnished performances, maybe?

And, haha, don't blame me if you do and don't like it! I just watch weird and terrible TV all the time these days.

[angelfireeast.livejournal.com]

Sorry I should made that clear. Yes I mean I Claudius is that scared as child.