The cruellest rumour of them all...

[thisbluespirit]

So I don't know why I'm even posting this, except I want to make everybody else suffer along with me, but the worst DW rumour is going around - that they have found or are hot on the trail of lots - yes, lots - of the missing episodes.

It's here: http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/06/13/wqill-doctor-who-have-a-very-special-surprise-for-us-in-november/ (caught via the excellent who_at_50)

I should be laughing cynically, of course, and I don't really believe it. The cruelty of it this time is that when they found two episodes in 2011, the articles surrounding it sounded quite definitely hopeful about finding more (and this has not been the case since Tomb's appearance in 1996 - ever after, when something's turned up it's been followed by gloomy warnings that there is NO MORE, no, we have checked the back of the cupboard and on top of the wardrobe and under the bed, and no. No.). Which made me wonder if they were on the trail of something specific and I've been vaguely hoping for something ever since - and since the anniversary is close to the BFI's Missing Believed Wiped event that if they did find something it'd be announced then. So... I am looking at this so wistfully! But... lots! That's just too much to swallow. It couldn't be true, and if it was, it'd have to be a general haul, so that would mean other lost TV as well and... well, yes. It would be very very amazing. But obviously either not true or massively exaggerated from "we've found another episode down the back of the sofa!" (Obviously, I want badly to be proved wrong on that. That's why it's so cruel.)

Also I hate burninated TV generally, have I mentioned that? Oh, yes, I have. Quite a bit. It's understandable from various reasons, but actually it's not okay to throw your only copies of nationally broadcast, professionally produced drama into tips and/or generally wipe/burn/lose them. In the 1970s when everyone was making such a concerted effort to preserve almost everything else, too, and VHS was just around the corner. And, in fact, ITV companies were still doing it in the 1980s and even 90s, when there were mergers and things. /o\

Anyway, let's make there be a point to this post. Let's have the evergreen chestnut - if there has been a serial recovered, what would you most want it to be? What other old and lost TV (if you have any interest in such things) would you want to have been uncovered sitting beside it?

Comments

[seriesfive]

Marco Polo! :D Please, let it be Marco Polo!

[thisbluespirit]

That would be high up on my list too - although it's slightly edged out of top spot by Power of the Daleks, which I'd love to see!

[john_amend_all]

In DW, I'd be happy with anything from The Faceless Ones onward.

Among other shows, I'd like to see the lost episodes of His Lordship Entertains recovered.

ETA: Oh, and the biggie: the original high-resolution footage of the Moon landings! Seriously, they recorded over that?!

And am generally annoyed with organisations not properly archiving things. Or keeping a single copy, which promptly gets wiped out by fire or flood.

[seriesfive]

Oh, and the biggie: the original high-resolution footage of the Moon landings! Seriously, they recorded over that?!

That's strangely unsettling. Although, come to think of it, wasn't the whole moon landing thing a hoax? ;)

[thisbluespirit]

It's easy to see things in retrospect, isn't it? Still, I do think drama by national TV networks is not too difficult to grasp as a thing that should be preserved, so it does annoy me.

In DW, I'd be happy with anything from The Faceless Ones onward.

I might have to not speak to you any more now - what I want most is Power of the Daleks, then pretty much any non-surviving/incomplete historical, and next anything when Ben and Polly. And only then would I go for EVil, or probably actually Web of Fear because of the Brigadier (being a Colonel, but still, more Nicholas Courtney).

;-p

[gillo]

I want the whole of the Celestial Toymaker. I remember being utterly riveted by it as a child and it sucks that they lost so much of it.

Other TV of tat period? Stranger on the Shore comes to mind.

[thisbluespirit]

I'd love to see that, too - it seems to have a bad rep these days (though it used to be seen as a lost classic - fandom switches round at intervals, :loL:), but I think it's surely something that by it's nature really needs to be seen rather than heard to get a true opinion of it, and that's why people tend not to rate it. I'd just want everything, or, failing that, anything! (Though I would love Power of the Daleks! It was so strong even on audio.)

What's Stranger on the Shore?

[swordznsorcery.livejournal.com]

It's possible. Africa is a good place to look. Certainly it's known that Sierra Leone had a nearly complete collection of Hartnell, that was lost in 1992 during the civil war. The building that it was stored in was burned down. The BBC's "We've looked everywhere honest" assurances that we used to get back then (before the show was considered important again!) turned out to have actually meant that they had rung up a few people and asked if they had any episodes lying around. So there was all that stuff just waiting for us to go and pick it up, and we didn't know until it was far too late. There could well be other archives in other African countries. I'll ask. There's a few people I know of who might be able to give a proper answer.

[thisbluespirit]

Yes, mentions of Africa makes me want to believe it, because that's sort of the last hope (other than advanced aliens recording it out in space when it reaches them) but it's bound to be just another hoax, or wild exaggeration.

And it's more recent (well 2000-2010) articles in DWM I was thinking of when I mentioned people saying they've looked everywhere. I don't really know about the BBC themselves. Just that last time in 2011, there was sudden optimism in the articles and reports, which there hadn't been when The Crusade episode turned up, or the Dalek Masterplan, so I wondered if they had hints of something else being around and that was why. It did sound rather like it, but maybe someone was just over-excited. So while I don't really believe in lots magically turning up (I want to!!!), I have been wondering if something else is going to soon.

Still, it's always fun to play the "what serial would you rescue?" game, isn't it? What would we do if they all existed? (*not bitter, no*

ETA: And which episode/other old TV would you go for, out of interest - given that I know you enjoy odd old TV, like me.

[jjpor.livejournal.com]

Certainly it's known that Sierra Leone had a nearly complete collection of Hartnell, that was lost in 1992 during the civil war. The building that it was stored in was burned down.

I remember when someone first told me about that, and my reaction was basically a massive mental "AARRGHH!", followed by many curses directed at the BBC for not knowing about it sooner. And then followed by not inconsiderable embarrassment/self-recrimination as I reflected that during the civil war in Sierra Leone, the Doctor Who archive burning down was quite literally the least of anybody's problems.

[rahirah]

I hope this is true, though I have to agree that it sounds too good to be. Still, even if 'lots' turns out to be "seven random episodes from five different serials, two with the sound track missing" that's something.

[thisbluespirit]

Yes, I think that's exactly the way I feel about it! :-)

[liadt]

'Power or Evil of the Daleks' both two of the best dalek stories, although I'd be happy with any second Dr serial. Not that I don't like the first but he's got more surviving episodes.

I think everyone knows what lost TV I want: missing Callan eps, I've read all but two of the missing eps in script form and several of them are really strong. Also the first two seasons of Ace of Wands or rather the best eps, quality seems a bit variable. After that all the variations of play for today thingies, having David Collings suffering in welsh, oh yes(!). Old Shakespeare adaptations, cos I'm nosy, the 1969 version of Julius Caesar exsists but it's in the vaults, boo, so a release would be nice. You're killing me BBC. 50's stuff would be good but most of wasn't recorded anyway. The Three Musketeers with Roger Delgado, I like the wig. And that's it off the top of my head!

[thisbluespirit]

Power would have to be top of my list, too.

I totally approve of your other list as well. Any lost TV containing David Collings is definitely a priority!! Also for DVD release. Network should get on that. ;-)

[jjpor.livejournal.com]

Thinking about it, Power and/or Evil of the Daleks, probably. "Evil", in particular, has represented something of a personal holy grail ever since I read a piece at a very young and impressionable age about how great it was, with pictures of the Dalek Emperor etc...but nearly all "lost" now! You know, like they were rubbing it in. ;) I'd quite like to see The Highlanders or the other episodes of The Web of Fear, too.

Regarding other lost TV, there are meant to be a lot of missing episodes of Top of the Pops etc including performances by very highly-regarded bands that are missing. Including the Beatles' last ever televised performance, iirc. I suppose the only problem with those if they were rediscovered is whether or not any of the presenters are now "helping the police with their enquiries"... :(

[thisbluespirit]

I'd love to see the Highlanders, and Power is probably my particular wish, ever since I heard the audio and how brilliant it was. But I would love just about every missing historical ever, really. The historicals do tend to be just so good - I want them all!!

Not, of course, that I wouldn't want Evil - the surviving episode is good, and I usually enjoy David Whitaker's stuff.

[persiflage-1.livejournal.com]

I am far too tired to have any thoughts beyond "It'd be lovely if it was true."

[thisbluespirit]

*hugs for tiredness*

I think that's what we all think really, isn't it? It's bound to be another rumour - it's surprising no one's done that one before given it's the anniversary year - but it would be absolutely wonderful if it wasn't, even if it weren't lots, but one solitary episode. :-/

[taiyou_to_tsuki.livejournal.com]

Last I checked Tumblr the latest words (read: rumours) on the episodes retrieved were Marco Polo, The Enemy of the World and Web of Fear. Which, if I believed it could happen before, made me even more cynical, because that would be way too perfect.

Like, I'd be more inclined to believe it if the list included serials that aren't fan favourites. :P

If anything of Marco Polo was retrieved, I'd run over hill and dale in joy, because it's one of my favourite Hartnell serials and the sets look absolutely gorgeous. But I wouldn't say no to The Highlanders or The Massacre of St. Bartholomew's Eve either (and hmm, I really want to know what The Myth Makers looked like as well... actually I can just make that "all the historicals ever").

[thisbluespirit]

Oh, I'm with you on all the historicals ever, yes. ;-)

And while I suspect Tumblr rumours aren't to be relied on (:lol:), to be fair Enemy of the World isn't really a particular fan favourite. (Evil of the Daleks, Power of the Daleks, and Fury from the Deep would all be more obvious Two choice. Marco Polo is such a typical wishlist serial, though, absolutely - and Web of Fear!)

[doctorpancakes.livejournal.com]

I actually have - I don't know if there's a word for this - but a weird sense of angst and dread that surfaces every time I allow myself to think about missing television programmes for too long - like, every once in a while my mind will throw out a nightmare vision of television shows being wiped and I'll just start panic-sobbing with fear, as though I've just envisioned myself being hit by a train or being attacked by a bear or something.

Like that scene in the film Agora where the library of Alexandria is set on fire? I was inconsolable. Is there a word for what I can only think to describe as the extreme fear of the loss of cultural knowledge and artefacts?

To that end, I'd like to see absolutely everything recovered ever. ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING. But I mean I guess especially my dream wishlist would be The Highlanders, The Massacre Of St. Bartholomew's Eve, and The Enemy Of The World. *sobbing*

[thisbluespirit]

No, I can understand that - and you want to work in TV, too, don't you? It upsets me, because it was careless archiving, and maybe-sort-of-on-purpose because they didn't have room for things, they were fire hazards and it was probably easier to go "Oh, well, I'm sure the other archive has a master..." But it is upsetting - it's not only our cultural heritage that was dumped, but many of the people who worked on these things are dead now. To also destroy (have destroyed) their creative work is in some ways a second death, and it distresses me too.

We can at least be glad that these days people are trying to find them - and sometimes succeeding! I don't really believe this - it's surely anniversary wishful thinking, but I'll quietly hope that it's based on them having found another episode somewhere, or something.

And I'd like to see those three - but, oh, I want everything back, too! *pets doctorpancakes*

[ravenskyewalker.livejournal.com]

Oh, good grief... seriously?! Have I lived long enough to possibly see "lots" of missing DW recovered?! I'm going to return to cynicism right now and decide it's all a lie; therefore, if it turns out not to be, I can be delighted.

I find the whole concept of destroying one's recordings of historically-interesting, professionally-produced drama to be wasteful and almost tragic, though I've always hated using that term (so overdramatic).

What would I like to see? All of it. Failing that... the missing eps of The Crusade (though we have audio of what's gone) and The Daleks' Master Plan, because it infuriates me to only have a taste of those.

[thisbluespirit]

Well, someone posted it. But, yeah, I'm sure it's just someone either building a mountain out of a molehill (which would be good - I want the mountain, but I'll settle for the molehill if we just get an episode back!) or messing with fans because it's the anniversary year. It's too much of a wish fulfilment thing, isn't it - like all those lost stories are going to reappear for the anniversary!

But it works because... we all so want it to be true. I am keeping my fingers crossed for something, though, but maybe even that's overly optimistic of me. It was just the hints about being on the trail of something else when they found the last two, but even that was probably just over-enthusiasm. And yet... *still hopes*

Oh, I'm with you on all of it! And, yes, what we have of The Crusade is so good - it would be marvellous to have the whole thing. That we have the audios is wonderful, of course, but I find I listen to them wondering what it looked like and pining a bit!

Well, if wishing works, we should have them back, right? :-/

[scifi-mel.livejournal.com]

Even one missing episode would be lovely. I really would like to see more Polly and Ben and more Patrick. I think a whole missing serial seems like too much to hope for. But I would love to be wrong about that.

[thisbluespirit]

Yes, I think that's pretty much how I feel. ♥

[llywela13.livejournal.com]

I've been following the rumour discussions on Gallifrey Base - they have their share of idiots, but it's generally easier reading the thread there to get a feel for which bits of the rumour might actually have some validity (and for the processes involved in recovery) and which bits have been tacked on/exaggerated by over-excited fans via a global game of Chinese whispers ('some old film cans have been found, there may be lost TV episodes in there' becomes 'lost TV episodes have been found, there may be some Doctor Who', becomes 'lost Doctor Who episodes have been found', and so on). It would be so nice to believe it, and a lot of sensible people seem half-convinced there may be reason for optimism this time, but I'm not getting my hopes up. If a recovery is announced, I'll be over the moon. If it isn't, well, we're no worse off.

But if a whole bunch of missing episodes really have been found and are in good enough condition to do anything with...well, I don't want to be greedy, but let's have us the whole of Marco Polo, Power of the Daleks and Highlanders, the missing episodes of Reign of Terror (Ian in chains!), Crusades (Ian being knighted and then staked out in the sun!), Web of Fear (the Brigadier before he was the Brigadier!), Invasion...

...I should probably stop there...

[thisbluespirit]

Yes. I can't help hoping (because I hope all the time, really), but I don't believe it. I think what I'm mainly hoping is that there's something at the bottom of the rumour, because one more episode - one clip even is marvellous, really. Ah well... *sigh*

I don't want to be greedy, but let's have us the whole of Marco Polo, Power of the Daleks and Highlanders, the missing episodes of Reign of Terror (Ian in chains!), Crusades (Ian being knighted and then staked out in the sun!), Web of Fear (the Brigadier before he was the Brigadier!), Invasion...

No, no, let's be greedy! Let's have everything! I want all of those too, but also The Myth Makers, The Massacre, The Smugglers, The Macra Terror... everything, dammit!

With bonus other old TV while we're at it! (Ah, if only!)